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 Posted: Sun Jan 1st, 2012 06:51 pm
   
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speedfix
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RFR wrote:
Happy New Year Everyone, so we have made it to 2012 with this one:):).

So what about an inappropriate modification then? ;);)

rfr

Steering system 2.2 moi ce. rfr 1e. ------"or repair by welding to a steering linkage component".
I could enlarge but as a NT I am to know just mot manual minimum standards.
Thanks RFR for keeping the topic going.
happy new year to all.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 1st, 2012 03:56 pm
   
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RFR
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Happy New Year Everyone, so we have made it to 2012 with this one:):).

So what about an inappropriate modification then? ;);)

rfr

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 Posted: Sun Jan 1st, 2012 06:18 am
   
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Wesley
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come on guys??:? 

I`m pretty sure that You can Rise above This??....:?

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 11:15 pm
   
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Stealth
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Proud to be professional wrote:


You have done scrap yard trips before lol:D, what's wrong with this example, to HOT for you:D:D

:P:P


When was the last time I did a scrap yard trip David - you must have a better memory than me - or you are confusing me with someone else ;)

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 11:08 pm
   
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Stealth wrote: Proud to be professional wrote:

I think Stealth should provide us with a proper example we can see to base our reasoning on when making a decision about either passing or failing such compoents:D

A trip to the local scrap yard then lol:D, they have burners in there as well so not to difficult to create an example lol:D



I wouldn't advise holding your breath while you wait David

:)


You have done scrap yard trips before lol:D, what's wrong with this example, to HOT for you:D:D

:P:P

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 10:53 pm
   
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Stealth
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Proud to be professional wrote:

I think Stealth should provide us with a proper example we can see to base our reasoning on when making a decision about either passing or failing such compoents:D

A trip to the local scrap yard then lol:D, they have burners in there as well so not to difficult to create an example lol:D



I wouldn't advise holding your breath while you wait David

:)

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 09:23 pm
   
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RFR
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Come on guys, 10hrs to go and we can get into inappropriate repairs and modifications, I'm all excited;););););)

rfr

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 07:00 pm
   
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speedfix
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Stealth wrote:
speedfix wrote:


IMO to have a non stressed component that pushes and pulls and to have any welding carried out with any mig stick ark etc to one part of the item will induce stress to it.

IMO it now becombes a RFR moi c.1.d. rfr 1.d.


Speedfix

You are - of course - perfectly entitled to hold an opinion.

However - in respect of the photo's - we are looking at standards as prescribed in the Manual - which states

'structural repair by welding' & 'signs of excessive heat having been applied'.

Clearly a tack has been applied in order to gain some purchase to release a seized nut - but in my opinon this does not constitute a 'repair'

Regards excessive heat, I can see no signs of 'blueing' of the material - a clear indicator of excessive heat. In fact the component shows a high degree of surface rust, which would have been dissipated if excessive heat had been applied. Again - in my opinion this does not meet the criteria for failure.

Testers are not expected to be experts in metallurgy - or indeed mathematics - in order to do the job - they are simply asked to make an assessment based on the Manual - and the defect as seen at the time of test - nothing more & nothing less. ;)


Thanks for the reply.
What would the outcombe be if a NT pass and advised the track rod and the presenter collected the car the same day,on his journey home he had to brake hard over a pot hole with the rod just happened to snap causeing an accident.
Maybe a test case of a similar event has happened?.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 05:50 pm
   
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I do believe that heat applied to steering compoents could be misunderstood and the wrong standards applied to the decision to fail the compoent, although I have never failed any in my time as a nominated tester.

I think Stealth should provide us with a proper example we can see to base our reasoning on when making a decision about either passing or failing such compoents:D

A trip to the local scrap yard then lol:D, they have burners in there as well so not to difficult to create an example lol:D


Edited to say;

My thread came after yours Stealth;), good example but maybe a picture to show how bad is to be considered bad:D

Last edited on Sat Dec 31st, 2011 05:52 pm by

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 05:46 pm
   
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Stealth
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speedfix wrote:


IMO to have a non stressed component that pushes and pulls and to have any welding carried out with any mig stick ark etc to one part of the item will induce stress to it.

IMO it now becombes a RFR moi c.1.d. rfr 1.d.


Speedfix

You are - of course - perfectly entitled to hold an opinion.

However - in respect of the photo's - we are looking at standards as prescribed in the Manual - which states

'structural repair by welding' & 'signs of excessive heat having been applied'.

Clearly a tack has been applied in order to gain some purchase to release a seized nut - but in my opinon this does not constitute a 'repair'

Regards excessive heat, I can see no signs of 'blueing' of the material - a clear indicator of excessive heat. In fact the component shows a high degree of surface rust, which would have been dissipated if excessive heat had been applied. Again - in my opinion this does not meet the criteria for failure.

Testers are not expected to be experts in metallurgy - or indeed mathematics - in order to do the job - they are simply asked to make an assessment based on the Manual - and the defect as seen at the time of test - nothing more & nothing less. ;)

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 Posted: Sat Dec 31st, 2011 05:06 pm
   
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speedfix
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Stealth wrote:
rocky69 wrote:
Maybe not :):):);):D



I can name plenty of 'highly stressed vehicle components'

but in engineering terms the track rod is there to push & pull on the steering arms - it's not carrying high loadings ;)


IMO to have a non stressed component that pushes and pulls and to have any welding carried out with any mig stick ark etc to one part of the item will induce stress to it.

IMO it now becombes a RFR moi c.1.d. rfr 1.d.

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 Posted: Fri Dec 30th, 2011 09:40 pm
   
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Stealth
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Proud to be professional wrote:


I have no idea now whether Matters of Testing will have available online issue 5 from October 1999, but in the horror stories back then I sent a steering arm and track rod to give an example of excessive heat applied to a steering arm.



What a pity David - they are only archived back to July 2000 - your audience will be disappointed :P

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 Posted: Fri Dec 30th, 2011 09:36 pm
   
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Stealth
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kit1958 wrote:
OK Stealth I am sure that you are correct, but are you aware of a difference of wording between the "book" & the rfr section on the vts device, there is no mention of "structural" on the rfr section. When you are put on the spot decisions are made by us mere mortals on unusual defects. Personally I have never seen weld applied to steering components or heard of it before. It may be a wild assumption, but at the time of test, I believed weld had been applied to repair a hole or similar made when someone had adjusted the tracking.If I made an incorrect decision so be it, but I have acted in good faith and would have defended that decision on appeal if necessary.

The end


Yes kit - I'm aware that some of the wording in the RFR sections on the VTS device are a little different to the 'book' but you should base your decisions in the following order :

1 - Method of Inspection, as per the 'book'

2 - Reason for Rejection, as per the 'book,

3 - Appropriate selection of the relevant item from
the VTS device menus, based on 1 & 2 above.

Wild assumptions aside - you have to base your RFR on the Manual - it may not look right at the time of test - but the 'book' really is you first and best line of defence. The 'book' doesn't ask for assumptions - it only asks you to make a decision based on what you see at the time - if you are really unsure then pass & ADVISE ;)

At worst - an appeal over the track rod end would get you 10 points for an 'incorrect decision' according to the 'book' - and a bit of education from your VE ;);)

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 Posted: Fri Dec 30th, 2011 03:06 pm
   
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RFR
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I just love this thread, it's better than a repeat on the telly over xmas.

If you can keep this going until the 1st of January 2012 you could also consider inappropriate repairs and modifications.

Either way pass and advice for all the said reasons including the new ones.

rfr

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 Posted: Fri Dec 30th, 2011 03:08 am
   
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Stealth wrote: kit1958 wrote:
surely a weld to a highly stressed steering or suspension component is a fail? :?:?

I choose to ignore irrelevant comments


The manual states 'structural repair by welding' - this one hasn't been repaired ;)


Or signs of excessive heat having been applied:D

I have no idea now whether Matters of Testing will have available online issue 5 from October 1999, but in the horror stories back then I sent a steering arm and track rod to give an example of excessive heat applied to a steering arm.

For any of you who are familiar with the early Audis, the steering arms are not stepped as shown in the picture, hence the heat applied and the tools somebody used to free off the track rod end seriously damage the track rod itself.

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 Posted: Thu Dec 29th, 2011 11:42 pm
   
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kit1958
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OK Stealth I am sure that you are correct, but are you aware of a difference of wording between the "book" & the rfr section on the vts device, there is no mention of "structural" on the rfr section. When you are put on the spot decisions are made by us mere mortals on unusual defects. Personally I have never seen weld applied to steering components or heard of it before. It may be a wild assumption, but at the time of test, I believed weld had been applied to repair a hole or similar made when someone had adjusted the tracking.If I made an incorrect decision so be it, but I have acted in good faith and would have defended that decision on appeal if necessary.

The end

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 Posted: Thu Dec 29th, 2011 11:18 pm
   
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KevG wrote: Shoot me now someone


 
bang :D

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 Posted: Thu Dec 29th, 2011 09:52 pm
   
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KevG
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Shoot me now someone

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 Posted: Thu Dec 29th, 2011 08:55 pm
   
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Stealth
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kit1958 wrote:
surely a weld to a highly stressed steering or suspension component is a fail? :?:?

I choose to ignore irrelevant comments


The manual states 'structural repair by welding' - this one hasn't been repaired ;)

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 Posted: Thu Dec 29th, 2011 08:52 pm
   
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Stealth
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rocky69 wrote:
Maybe not :):):);):D



I can name plenty of 'highly stressed vehicle components'

but in engineering terms the track rod is there to push & pull on the steering arms - it's not carrying high loadings ;)

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