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 Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2012 11:28 pm
   
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Stealth
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I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed

:):)


Not gospel David - & not cast in stone.

The VOSA/ATOS MOT computerisation contract expires in 2015

Vosa is exploring the feasability of making the MOT test internet based.

YES, the VTS would need to provide some means of internet access, but that would be up to each site to supply the kit - in the words of a presenter at a recent seminar - the site could use any old computer, laptop or even smart phone for access to a website with a locked down IP address.

Further development would allow on-line training packages to be dropped to testers on an annual basis to remove the need for testers to attend refresher courses.

Following on from this, further develpment would allow managers to perform certain functions from any internet access point - such as ordering test slots, reports etc.

One sticking point is that some VTS's in rural area's have limted intenet access.

BTW David - the same presenter regularly attends the VTS council meetings - he said he couldn't recall meeting you.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2012 04:34 am
   
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Wesley
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NITROS44 wrote: RFR wrote: Proud to be professional wrote:
I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results.

VOSA have already done their homework and they have already said that over 80% of peole they asked would be happy to receive no paperwork when having their vehicles tested.They advised something along the lines of just sending people an email or message to the ipod etc.

Maybe I am thinking a bit too far into the future for you?

:):)
RFR WROTE

So come on Ptbp

Where have you got this information from, because I cannot find anything anywhere that says: "in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results".

Are you on the inside, have a crystal ball or do you as I suspect make it up as you go along;)

rfr

NITROS WROTE:)

PTBP has no crystal ball the same as me RFR,suspect all along,;)

We will have to supply mot hardware at some stage so he is quite correct in stating that,:)

I was under the impression that most people knew this but it appears its the selected few or people in the know.:D

Does that mean We can finally use "broadband" and not "dial up"?:?.....:P lol.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2012 03:08 am
   
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NITROS44
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RFR wrote: Proud to be professional wrote:
I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results.

VOSA have already done their homework and they have already said that over 80% of peole they asked would be happy to receive no paperwork when having their vehicles tested.They advised something along the lines of just sending people an email or message to the ipod etc.

Maybe I am thinking a bit too far into the future for you?

:):)
RFR WROTE

So come on Ptbp

Where have you got this information from, because I cannot find anything anywhere that says: "in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results".

Are you on the inside, have a crystal ball or do you as I suspect make it up as you go along;)

rfr

NITROS WROTE:)

PTBP has no crystal ball the same as me RFR,suspect all along,;)

We will have to supply mot hardware at some stage so he is quite correct in stating that,:)

I was under the impression that most people knew this but it appears its the selected few or people in the know.:D

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 10:52 pm
   
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Aylesbury Jock
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I think you can guess what I think of the idea. Since most presenters don't know much about their vehicles, anything which restricts the information given to them is a bad thing. When forced upon me I will have no choice but to accept it, but hopefully there will still be an advisory capacity along with the pass/fail. Thinking ahead should not always mean abandoning good practice. It's a shame it so often does.:( Thinking about it, there will have to be some form of recording non-failable observed defects or there would be no way for us to CYA

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 08:59 pm
   
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kit1958
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What is talked about & what happens in the real world is not always the same !!:D

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 08:48 pm
   
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They talked about the online portal at the seminars :)

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 08:36 pm
   
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What can I say to you?

Who writes the manuals?

Who has influence in what goes into them?

Who influences what the short and long term of the mot scheme will be?

Who are the active involved members who help shape the future of the mot scheme?

:):)

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 07:08 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:
I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results.

VOSA have already done their homework and they have already said that over 80% of peole they asked would be happy to receive no paperwork when having their vehicles tested.They advised something along the lines of just sending people an email or message to the ipod etc.

Maybe I am thinking a bit too far into the future for you?

:):)

So come on Ptbp

Where have you got this information from, because I cannot find anything anywhere that says: "in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results".

Are you on the inside, have a crystal ball or do you as I suspect make it up as you go along;)

rfr

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 02:43 am
   
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castrolrob
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with vosa that would definately be VERY long term if the original delay was any guide,seem to recall every vosa rep telling me computer would be installed shortly for approximately a decade before it was:P with reference to the original post(brake pipes remember?)if its the section i think it is then visibilty is pretty restricted as in mondeo etc,youve all seen em.the advisory from the year before would suggest it was visible to some extent however(dirt,rain and s**te allowing of course) .the guy to ask would be the original tester.as regards wesleys quote of bob hope and no hope if my names bob then what does that leave me with?

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2012 02:23 am
   
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Aylesbury Jock wrote:
Proud to be professional wrote:



My opinion is that I think NT's are putting too much weight on the decision making and thinking they are covering their backs by failing items, when VOSA are saying pass and advise.

Just my opinion as an NT.:)


Yes ptbp, pass and advise, so it would be a mistake to do away with the advisories, replacing them with a one size fits all blanket covering note. Clear advisory notices are the best tools we have as testers. You are absolutely correct in saying the driver is legally bound to keep his vehicle in order, but as testers I would say we have a duty(moral, if not legal)to keep him informed if we notice any problems. It's(usually) not that time consuming. If you are actually proud to be professional, then be professional, not lazy. I am hearing 'it's not my job. There's no law says I have to' from a surprising source here. A blanket covering note telling the customer it's your job not mine might seem like a good idea, but it would be a huge backward step for the mot profession, and particularly customer relations, which are never going to be great at the best of times. I would ask you to reconsider.


I would be interested to read what you think about VOSA's long term plans then, because in 2015 your VTS device and printer will be removed, no service provider will give back up and you will have to supply your own computer or electronic device to upload to VOSA's website the test results.

VOSA have already done their homework and they have already said that over 80% of peole they asked would be happy to receive no paperwork when having their vehicles tested.They advised something along the lines of just sending people an email or message to the ipod etc.

Maybe I am thinking a bit too far into the future for you?

:):)

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2012 10:56 pm
   
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Proud to be professional wrote:



My opinion is that I think NT's are putting too much weight on the decision making and thinking they are covering their backs by failing items, when VOSA are saying pass and advise.

Just my opinion as an NT.:)


Yes ptbp, pass and advise, so it would be a mistake to do away with the advisories, replacing them with a one size fits all blanket covering note. Clear advisory notices are the best tools we have as testers. You are absolutely correct in saying the driver is legally bound to keep his vehicle in order, but as testers I would say we have a duty(moral, if not legal)to keep him informed if we notice any problems. It's(usually) not that time consuming. If you are actually proud to be professional, then be professional, not lazy. I am hearing 'it's not my job. There's no law says I have to' from a surprising source here. A blanket covering note telling the customer it's your job not mine might seem like a good idea, but it would be a huge backward step for the mot profession, and particularly customer relations, which are never going to be great at the best of times. I would ask you to reconsider.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2012 06:36 pm
   
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Wesley wrote:
Proud to be professional wrote: Tony Gingell wrote:
Last year, we had a car come in for service that had very recently had an MOT done just before the car was purchased. All four of our testers, including myself, said they would have failed the car. It went to appeal, and VOSA said pass and advise.
Having once been in a car, with SINGLE line brakes that failed upon braking for a roundabout, I can fully sympathise with you. I would rather get some points from VOSA for failing a car that then passed on appeal, than risk the safety of my customers.

PTBP,
To not put advise notes down on a printed format would be VERY counter productive. One of the main advantages of the pass and advise system is to prove that you saw a potential defect and made a professional judgement on it.
This thread is a classic case. Advised in print in 2010, not in 2011, so unfortunatly its judged that it was missed.


I don't believe that statement above you say to be true.I make all the notes on the VT40,which the VTS does not have to keep, but we keep for 3 months anyway.

If I use the approved VOSA compoent advisory list on the VTS device then most things a NT does advise is not there anyway?

So a manual advise facility is provided, but the software is incapable of storing the information the NT has entered, so common items not listed in compoent list must be repeadedly typed over and over again to keep telling the customer of problems seen, which experience over many many years has proved the customer just wants the pass certificate and that is it.

VOSA deem that when a vehicle has passed the mot test that it met the minimum standards at the time of inspection, what they then say is that it is difficult to judge what something would have been like some time later if an appeal was carried out.

I generally understand from previous AE's and NT's who have had appeals that when problems occur it is because the NT's have been over zealous, and VOSA have over ruled and passed and advised where the NT failed items.

As VOSA have said it is BEST PRACTICE to advise the presenter of the vehicle of items seen that are close to being a failure point, but there is no law that states you must issue an advisory notice, however there is laws that clearly state the user of a vehicle is liable if driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

My opinion is that I think NT's are putting too much weight on the decision making and thinking they are covering their backs by failing items, when VOSA are saying pass and advise.

Just my opinion as an NT.:)




Hi PTBP,

I beg to differ about your statement above??:? surely "best practice" Is a service related quote? and falls under the service "hat"?:?  Whilst wearing our MOT "hat"? we have to Inspect to the "minimum" reqirements?? eg;- the next best thing to "scrap"!;)

The "Software" Is Incapable of storing ammendments to the selections, when changing even the "colour of a vehicle"??:? from year to year!:shock:  So what "hope" have you really got??;):D

wes.;) 

ps;- "bob hope" and "no hope"!;) 

pps;- I have already quoted on the other issue.:P 




I don't think you have understood what I meant:?

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2012 05:09 am
   
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Wesley
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Proud to be professional wrote: Tony Gingell wrote:
Last year, we had a car come in for service that had very recently had an MOT done just before the car was purchased. All four of our testers, including myself, said they would have failed the car. It went to appeal, and VOSA said pass and advise.
Having once been in a car, with SINGLE line brakes that failed upon braking for a roundabout, I can fully sympathise with you. I would rather get some points from VOSA for failing a car that then passed on appeal, than risk the safety of my customers.

PTBP,
To not put advise notes down on a printed format would be VERY counter productive. One of the main advantages of the pass and advise system is to prove that you saw a potential defect and made a professional judgement on it.
This thread is a classic case. Advised in print in 2010, not in 2011, so unfortunatly its judged that it was missed.


I don't believe that statement above you say to be true.I make all the notes on the VT40,which the VTS does not have to keep, but we keep for 3 months anyway.

If I use the approved VOSA compoent advisory list on the VTS device then most things a NT does advise is not there anyway?

So a manual advise facility is provided, but the software is incapable of storing the information the NT has entered, so common items not listed in compoent list must be repeadedly typed over and over again to keep telling the customer of problems seen, which experience over many many years has proved the customer just wants the pass certificate and that is it.

VOSA deem that when a vehicle has passed the mot test that it met the minimum standards at the time of inspection, what they then say is that it is difficult to judge what something would have been like some time later if an appeal was carried out.

I generally understand from previous AE's and NT's who have had appeals that when problems occur it is because the NT's have been over zealous, and VOSA have over ruled and passed and advised where the NT failed items.

As VOSA have said it is BEST PRACTICE to advise the presenter of the vehicle of items seen that are close to being a failure point, but there is no law that states you must issue an advisory notice, however there is laws that clearly state the user of a vehicle is liable if driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

My opinion is that I think NT's are putting too much weight on the decision making and thinking they are covering their backs by failing items, when VOSA are saying pass and advise.

Just my opinion as an NT.:)




Hi PTBP,

I beg to differ about your statement above??:? surely "best practice" Is a service related quote? and falls under the service "hat"?:?  Whilst wearing our MOT "hat"? we have to Inspect to the "minimum" reqirements?? eg;- the next best thing to "scrap"!;)

The "Software" Is Incapable of storing ammendments to the selections, when changing even the "colour of a vehicle"??:? from year to year!:shock:  So what "hope" have you really got??;):D

wes.;) 

ps;- "bob hope" and "no hope"!;) 

pps;- I have already quoted on the other issue.:P 


Last edited on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 05:20 am by Wesley

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2012 02:52 am
   
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Tony Gingell wrote:
Last year, we had a car come in for service that had very recently had an MOT done just before the car was purchased. All four of our testers, including myself, said they would have failed the car. It went to appeal, and VOSA said pass and advise.
Having once been in a car, with SINGLE line brakes that failed upon braking for a roundabout, I can fully sympathise with you. I would rather get some points from VOSA for failing a car that then passed on appeal, than risk the safety of my customers.

PTBP,
To not put advise notes down on a printed format would be VERY counter productive. One of the main advantages of the pass and advise system is to prove that you saw a potential defect and made a professional judgement on it.
This thread is a classic case. Advised in print in 2010, not in 2011, so unfortunatly its judged that it was missed.


I don't believe that statement above you say to be true.I make all the notes on the VT40,which the VTS does not have to keep, but we keep for 3 months anyway.

If I use the approved VOSA compoent advisory list on the VTS device then most things a NT does advise is not there anyway?

So a manual advise facility is provided, but the software is incapable of storing the information the NT has entered, so common items not listed in compoent list must be repeadedly typed over and over again to keep telling the customer of problems seen, which experience over many many years has proved the customer just wants the pass certificate and that is it.

VOSA deem that when a vehicle has passed the mot test that it met the minimum standards at the time of inspection, what they then say is that it is difficult to judge what something would have been like some time later if an appeal was carried out.

I generally understand from previous AE's and NT's who have had appeals that when problems occur it is because the NT's have been over zealous, and VOSA have over ruled and passed and advised where the NT failed items.

As VOSA have said it is BEST PRACTICE to advise the presenter of the vehicle of items seen that are close to being a failure point, but there is no law that states you must issue an advisory notice, however there is laws that clearly state the user of a vehicle is liable if driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

My opinion is that I think NT's are putting too much weight on the decision making and thinking they are covering their backs by failing items, when VOSA are saying pass and advise.

Just my opinion as an NT.:)

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2012 02:33 am
   
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fedup wrote:
A car could be tested this year - it comes in on a nice dry day - you advise slightly corroded brake pipes. Next year it comes back in on a wet day of a day of snow or it has seen some off roading and there's mud everywhere. Different tester this time he views pipes as he see's them but the corrosion may not be quite so clear.

So it would be a refusal to test then if too dirty to inspect no?

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2012 02:40 pm
   
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A car could be tested this year - it comes in on a nice dry day - you advise slightly corroded brake pipes. Next year it comes back in on a wet day of a day of snow or it has seen some off roading and there's mud everywhere. Different tester this time he views pipes as he see's them but the corrosion may not be quite so clear.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2012 05:21 am
   
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Tony Gingell wrote: Last year, we had a car come in for service that had very recently had an MOT done just before the car was purchased. All four of our testers, including myself, said they would have failed the car. It went to appeal, and VOSA said pass and advise.
Having once been in a car, with SINGLE line brakes that failed upon braking for a roundabout, I can fully sympathise with you. I would rather get some points from VOSA for failing a car that then passed on appeal, than risk the safety of my customers.

PTBP,
To not put advise notes down on a printed format would be VERY counter productive. One of the main advantages of the pass and advise system is to prove that you saw a potential defect and made a professional judgement on it.
"This thread is a classic case". Advised in print in 2010, not in 2011, so unfortunatly its judged that it was missed.




Hi Tony,

You are now "potentionally" judging that an item was missed?:? and therefore "You", with all of the "Information" and "past history", available to "You"?;)

It Has already been pointed out that, NT`s Don`t have that privelege?:(

It Has also been pointed out, that "we are only human".;)

As this Is a "Scenario", Lets not assume, but to "realise" that up until the "plain paper printing" changes occured, that most Traders would have Discarded the VT32!:shock:

The, "Said Vehicle"?, Was down "The Block" the Next Day, and "Sold As Seen"!;) It now has a "New Owner", Who lives some 250 Miles away?;)

Wes.;)

ps;- should "You" not "Declare"/State", that You Are", "VOSA" Members? rather than portray your goodselves as being "Trade Members"?

pps;- then we could have some "great diuscussions";):P 

 

 


Last edited on Fri Mar 16th, 2012 06:21 am by Wesley

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2012 02:56 am
   
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Tony Gingell
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Last year, we had a car come in for service that had very recently had an MOT done just before the car was purchased. All four of our testers, including myself, said they would have failed the car. It went to appeal, and VOSA said pass and advise.
Having once been in a car, with SINGLE line brakes that failed upon braking for a roundabout, I can fully sympathise with you. I would rather get some points from VOSA for failing a car that then passed on appeal, than risk the safety of my customers.

PTBP,
To not put advise notes down on a printed format would be VERY counter productive. One of the main advantages of the pass and advise system is to prove that you saw a potential defect and made a professional judgement on it.
This thread is a classic case. Advised in print in 2010, not in 2011, so unfortunatly its judged that it was missed.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2012 01:34 am
   
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Tim
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Proud to be professional wrote:

I am currently looking into some legal regulations which will permit me to stop having to manually produce these items for the vehicle presenters, thus using a simple legal statement which covers me as an NT, and tells the owner/presenter of the vehicle that it is their responsibility to comply with the law and not the NT's responsibility to highlight every detail of a defective vehicle to cover the NT's back.



Keep us updated with your progress PTBP :)

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 Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2012 02:39 am
   
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Aylesbury Jock
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kit1958 wrote: Just a quick point of information testers do not have acsses the old advisory informationThat is true kit but the pipes were there in front of the tester, so if they were bad he should have failed or advised. The point has already been raised however that we are only human.

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