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If it fails but I have time remaining  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Fri Mar 10th, 2017 11:06 am
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kbs
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Mana: 
Yes best moved - sorry, drifted too far.

Thanks for a great forum

It was going to be a 'should it pass' question as the tyre was legal (measured carefully when I removed it) and the indicators were amber -not white.

I took photos of the indicators but realised its hard to tell the true colours from a photo so didn't post them.

I took photos of the tyres (off the wheels) but realised there was no point posting them - they are above the limit even at the edges.

It was then I began to suspect altera motives for the fail so thought back through what the guy actually said.....

Decided the best thing to do was fit new tyres (as they would be needed soon) and indicator bulbs and take him up on the free retest.

I would have left the car with them to do the work but they were simply asking too much for the tyres and bulbs.

I saved £35 by taking the loose wheels to another establishment nearby and buying the bulbs at tesco. If he had only asked £20 above the going rate - I would (probably) have paid it.

Last edited on Fri Mar 10th, 2017 12:51 pm by kbs

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 Posted: Fri Mar 10th, 2017 11:02 am
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martins
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Mana: 
This topic isn't really a 'Pass or Fail' situation.

Would anyone object if this discussion was moved to the 'General Off-topic discussions' section?

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 Posted: Fri Mar 10th, 2017 10:44 am
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kbs
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Hypothetical situation A – Dangerous vehicle arrives at test centre but is not tested.

Vehicle appears ok and tester drives it into workshop to commence testing. As the tester is turning the vehicle, the front cross member (concealed by plastic) fails and the two inner wings are now moving independently. The tester is unable to drive the car onto the ramps because he needs to turn left to do so and the vehicle will now only make very wide left turns due to the separated cross member.
The test is aborted before it begins.

Hypothetical situation B – Vehicle is tested and found to be dangerous.

Initially the vehicle appears OK but during the test serious and dangerous conditions are found in the steering and tyres. The vehicle fails and a failure certificate is issued.
Following either of the above situations –the driver returns to collect the car – calls the tester a pussy/officious jobs worth for refusing (to test) or failing the car and drives it away (wheels spinning) onto the public roads.

If the MoT tester/garage owner see the car being driven away and are aware that it presents an immediate and real danger to the driver, other road users, pedestrians, property, animals and even  unlit pavement mounting cyclists – are they obliged to report either situation A or B and if they are – who to?

If there is no legal/profession obligation to do so – would you do it anyway?

For those who are not involved the motor trade – would you want the garage to report such a reckless and dangerous driver?

If we should report such dangerous cars, surely we should do so even if they pass the MoT? Example: a lowered kiddie cars with suspension so hard as to reduce stopping distances on real roads and at any bump, punch the driver so hard in the ass they will be unable to keep proper control.

Yes - I do cycle but with lights and on the road.

Last edited on Fri Mar 10th, 2017 10:58 am by kbs

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 Posted: Thu Mar 9th, 2017 07:49 pm
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Obd Rick
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Mana: 
I would like clarification on this subject too.

The way it was explained to me was say you bring your vehicle in for an MOT early and it fails then even though you failed your old MOT is still valid, so technically you can still drive about on the old MOT however if you did get pulled over for whatever reason and it comes to light that you have failed an MOT then you are committing the offence of "knowingly driving an un-roadworthy vehicle". As Stealth made a point on tho who has access to this information and how easy it is for them to find out is another question altogether.

However to me this brings up the questions of

1: What about failures that have been marked as dangerous by the tester, surely if a vehicle had been named dangerous by an authority then it should not be allowed on the road period, because let's face it this is only really important for when s#it hits the fan and their has been an accident and the unfortunate injury or worse of a person and it comes to a court case and the inevitable question of who's fault it was that vehicle was on the road...

1: Are you covered by law on the journey back from your MOT appointment regardless of result similar reasons as above

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 Posted: Thu Mar 9th, 2017 09:31 am
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kbs
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Mana: 
Hi Stealth,

That doesn't quite fit.

The archive of the page before that date shows the current advice.

As far back as I can quickly go shows the current advice, then it changes to the "You must not drive the vehicle on the road if it fails the test, even if the MOT hasn’t run out"

Then it changes back to the current advice.

It should be noted that the site never says "your MoT will be cancelled" which is what the 'manager' told me. As mentioned before - I'm very cynical and assumed he was lying. I was then very surprised to find what we did in the archives. Whilst I was right to be cynical – it may just be that I knew better than the ‘manager’ rather than him trying to cheat me.

It seems MoT testers in general were not aware of this change which makes me think it was just a mistake by our glorious leaders.

I would be interested if anyone has any first hand memories of this?
Perhaps this is the 'shape of things to come'?
Thanks everyone for your input.

Last edited on Thu Mar 9th, 2017 09:51 am by kbs

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 Posted: Wed Mar 8th, 2017 05:30 pm
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Stealth
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Mana: 
The guidance regards driving to and from MOT was originally on the DVLA website. I can't recall the exact details unfortunately. However I can recall looking up the information to answer a similar question.

The government has an ongoing drive to migrate services, and public information into one website, hence Gov.UK.

I'm fairly certain that 2015 would be the point when the info was migrated to the Gov.uk site, and was probably updated at the same time.

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 Posted: Tue Mar 7th, 2017 12:48 pm
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kbs
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Mana: 
Stealth wrote: .....A Failure does not cancel a current MOT certificate, which lasts for 12 months regardless....
Hi Stealth,

While it doesn't actually say "A Failure DOES cancel a current MOT certificate", it does make it clear you cannot drive the car (in 2015) after a fail has been issued.

Were you aware of this 2015 'problem'? Was it just an error on the Goverment web pages around then? Certainly the previous and post archives I've seen both agree with your post - its only this one from Sept 2015 that differs.

The 'manager' was wrong to tell me it was a recent thing but it really was a (historic) thing!

Looks like a simple .gov error - hope it wasn't just a few years early.


Last edited on Tue Mar 7th, 2017 01:31 pm by kbs

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 Posted: Tue Mar 7th, 2017 12:14 pm
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kbs
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Mana: 
Hi gf,

Was that from the following link?

https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/after-the-test

The link was updated 2nd March 2017

But..... I think this leads us to the problem!!!!

Looking back at previous versions of the page, here is one from September 13th 2015

YOU CANNOT CLICK THE FOLLOWING LINK - if you do, it will just send you to the URL at the end of the string. If you want to see this old version of the page, cut and paste it into your browser on your COMPUTER. Please do not tell me this link doesn't work on your phone!!

https://web.archive.org/web/20150913134038/https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/after-the-test

*********************
Failing the MOT

If your vehicle fails the MOT:

........Driving a vehicle that’s failed

You must not drive the vehicle on the road if it fails the test, even if the MOT hasn’t run out, except to:
  • have the failed defects fixed
  • a pre-arranged MOT test appointment
You can be fined up to £2,500, be banned from driving and get 3 penalty points for driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition.
.........
*********************

So back in 2015 - you were NOT allowed to drive away a vehicle that had failed its MoT even if it had failed for a dirty numberplate and had 11 months MoT remaining!!!

Looks like I owe the clean nailed manager an appology. He wasn't a money grabbing git, full of sh*t - he was just eighteen months out of date.

Anyone know a  tester who was aware of this??

Thanks all
kbs



Last edited on Tue Mar 7th, 2017 12:28 pm by kbs

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 Posted: Tue Mar 7th, 2017 11:33 am
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gfautos
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Mana: 
This is from the Government website.

Failing the MOT
If your vehicle fails the MOT:

you’ll get a ‘refusal of an MOT test certificate’ from the test centre
it will be recorded in the MOT database
You can appeal the result if you think it’s wrong.

Driving a vehicle that’s failed

You can take your vehicle away if your MOT certificate is still valid.

If your MOT has run out you can take your vehicle to:

have the failed defects fixed
a pre-arranged MOT test appointment
In both cases, your vehicle still needs to meet the minimum standards of roadworthiness at all times or you can be fined.

You can be fined up to £2,500, be banned from driving and get 3 penalty points for driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

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 Posted: Tue Mar 7th, 2017 11:15 am
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kbs
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Mana: 
Hi Stealth.

Thanks - much as expected.

Good to have it clarified that the info I received from this 'manager' is incorrect.

If the 'manager' had been correct that the current MoT is cancelled as soon as the vehicle fails an MoT then I would have been at risk from the camera cars.

As the 'manager' is incorect then I have nothing to worry about from the camera cars. Had the ‘manager’ simply suggested this may have been the case then I’d have ignored him much in the way we ignore a Halfrauds kiddie telling you only their orange scented screen wash is suitable for modern wipers.

The difference being we expect the likes of Halfrauds, Specsavers, B&Q ignoramuses to have been selected for the job because their managers can con them in believing the selling spiel they are spouting is the truth and not just an attempt to raise money from  gullible members of the public. Sadly this leads to the unfortunate teens selling unnecessary prodcuts to their grannies for the benfit of their rip off employers.

Not sure why I’m surprised when this happens – just disappointed to see it a small chain outlet.

Thanks again.

Last edited on Tue Mar 7th, 2017 11:18 am by kbs

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 09:29 pm
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Stealth
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Mana: 
The only enforcement agency able to check a recent MOT fail is DVSA.

All other agencies are reliant on a CURRENT MOT certificate being in place. A Failure does not cancel a current MOT certificate, which lasts for 12 months regardless.

Even the most up to date system, police ANPR, only stores the fact that there is/isn't a current certificate in place. The fact that the vehicle may have just failed with a few weeks/days left is NOT recorded.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 04:54 pm
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kbs
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Mana: 
Thanks Rob,

understood.

As far as the insurance goes – yes – I’d bet its reduced to third party instantly. AFAIK – they can’t cancel your cover (even when your pissed) they can only reduce it to 3rd party. Given the values of the cars I drive, it would never be worth making a claim anyway.

For DVSA - sleeping dogs and all that. I would not want to appear on their radar. I know ignorance of the law is no excuse but its a lot harder to convince someone of your 'genuine mistake' if you have previously had an idepth discussion with a goverment body on the subject. For the same reason, I'm not naming the 'small chain' involved or reporting it to their head office.

I think the way this guy presented it was quite deliberate. He even told me the rule was not well known and that the testers had not been told of it. At that point I felt I was being maipulated. But yes, it could have been an honest mistake and he could have thought he was giving me honest and accurate advice. He could be under pressure from head office to put this spin on it. It would be interesting if anyone else has met this kind of sales approch?

I'll keep an eye on this forum - as someone who runs older cars and DIYs them badly, such rules would make a big difference to me (I would have to buy a trailer to start with).

Whilst I would not drive a car that the tester had declared dangerous - since the computerisation of the results - I'd now be very carefull of any thing being recorded against one of my cars. It could be time to (inadvertantly) cover the number plates when driving home following a fail.

Thanks

kbs




Last edited on Mon Mar 6th, 2017 05:08 pm by kbs

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 04:36 pm
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castrolrob
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Mana: 
keep in mind that this is only my own understanding of the situation based on previous experience.for a fully definitive answer you would need to contact dvsa(the current name of the people dealing with the mot scheme)and all this only deals with the mot,the insurance situation for instance could be very different.the people you were dealing with may have made a genuine error in telling you your previous test was invalid,by the same token so could I in telling you that its still in force....

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:50 pm
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kbs
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Mana: 
Thank you, explains it perfectly.

As I thought - the car had faults but also still had a current MoT.

I would never drive a car that a MoT examiner had told me was dangerous.

It might be strong to say the manager I spoke to was "a lying thieving f*****", he might have just been an "ignorant thieving f******"!

I changed the tyre before driving so I was risking prosection for indicators that were not fully amber and a number plate with a smudge. But I was not risking prosecutuion for driving with out an MoT.

The "Your MoT certifiacte has been cancelled" thing is a really important point around my way – there a very few Police but lots of ‘enforcement’ cars with cameras recording number plates to check against tax/mot/insurance databases later. Even if the car had four bald tyres, Bodeacia stlye knives from the wheels and lethal brakes – unless there is an accident, the chance of getting prosecuted is very low – however the chance of a £100 no (whatever) ticket from the camera car is moderate.

I would never drive a car that a MoT examiner had told me was dangerous.

I suspect if I had arrived in time to speak to the tester rather than the manger then I would not have been subjected to this BS.
Thanks for your fast replies - good to debunk this.

Last edited on Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:53 pm by kbs

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:40 pm
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castrolrob
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Mana: 
its always been the case that driving a vehicle with a defect of which you were aware is illegal,nothing can cancel your old mot except a prohibition notice,it remains in force regardless but in the old days it was impossible to prove any of the above,the modern system is on a computer record so in the event of an accident involving a defect you had failed on it would be easy to prove you were aware of it.having said all this the chance of you getting pulled for a deteriorated no plate and faded bulbs in daylight(I assume your spare was the correct size/type)are vanishingly small and the place concerned was probably trying to scare you into spending a few quid

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:35 pm
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KevG
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Mana: 
Hi. In a nutshell the old MOT is still valid.
However, it is an offence to drive an unroadworthy car on the road.
So, yes you still have an MOT,
However, you shouldn't drive it on the road.

Hope this helps.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:32 pm
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kbs
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Hi gurus – Please can anyone help me understand the following incident?

***************************************************************

To clarify my long winded question below - here is a quick ficticous example;
***************************************************************

My car has four weeks left on its MoT - I have it tested and a failiure certificate is issued for a bald tyre. Its too late to get a retest that day so I fit the good spare wheel and drive the car home. Three weeks later - I haven't got round to the retest and I'm driving a 'faultless' car. Can I  be prosecuted for driving without a MoT when I have last years certificate that has not yet expired?
****************************************************************
Here is the longwinded nonsense that lead to the above question;
****************************************************************

I had a MoT last month. All done, passed and sorted.

Initially the car failed (quite correctly) on lamps, number plate and a tyre.
 I changed the bad tyre for the spare and drove half a mile home.

When I went to leave without having asked for prices to do the work, the counter assistant (manager) told me that the MoT (that was inforce and still had three weeks to run) was no longer valid as the car had now failed a MoT. "If you drive it away - you are driving a car without a MoT".

I asked if this rule had changed since last year – he said it had changed recently and wasn’t well advertised.
 I asked him to clarify as I intended to change the bad tyre for the spare and drive home with indicators that were ‘wrong colour’ (very slight fading of orange paint on bulb) and a number plate that had some staining on the surface. Would this really mean I was driving the car without a MoT? He told me, Yes, it means exactly that.

 Being a miserable and cynical bastard, I asked what the legal options would be – you’ve guessed it! I needed to buy a tyre/bulbs/number plate and have them fitted before driving away, the only other legal option is to take the car away on a trailer.

I think I must have misunderstood something here? I understand you’d be stupid to drive away a car with a fault that an inspector has declared to be dangerous. I also understand you could (and should) be prosecuted for that dangerous fault if you were to drive it on the road (regardless of if you are travelling to or from an MoT/MoT repair).

Have I misunderstood the counter guy?, is there some truth in parts of what he said? I can't beleive they would lie that cleanly - too easy to be caught out  - I could beleive he was confused or had been told by head office to 'play to your customers fears'.

Any one else heard of this approach? 

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